CONTENTS     ENDNOTES

Woodward's Reminiscenses
of the
Creek, or Muscogee Indians,
contained in letters to friends in
Georgia and Alabama.
By Thomas S. Woodward of Louisiana
(formerly of Alabama.)
With an Appendix,
containing interesting matter relating to the general subject.

Montgomery, Ala.
Barrett & Wimbish, Book and General Job Printers
1859

Entered according to Act of Congress, on the 9th day of January, 1859, by
J. J. Hooper, as Proprietor,
in the Clerk's Office of the District Court of the United States for the Middle District of Alabama
[1]


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CONTENTS

  • Introduction by J. J. Hooper
    "...a brave, rough, warm-hearted man, of fine intellectual endowments, a most sagacious judge of character, extensive knowledge of Creek Indian history, manners and character -- with an indomitable will and a sturdy self-reliance, which spoke for itself in his tall, sinewy form and strongly-marked, expressive face."
  • May 2, 1857
    "I knew the spot where Montgomery stands before any white man ever thought of locating there."
  • December 9, 1857
    " I was the founder of Tuskegee. I selected the place for the county site, or place for the court house, in 1833. I built the first house on that ridge... "
  • Dec.24, 1857
    " Col. Pickett is correct, as to the Alabama Town being just below Montgomery, for I was at it when they lived there, and it was called Esanchatty, from the red bluffs on which a portion of Montgomery is built. "
  • Jan.10, 1858
    " Indians in almost every instance learn our language quicker than we learn theirs, particularly our pronunciation. "
  • March 21, 1858
    " And it is equally as shameful as true, that other Christian nations have followed the example of Spain, with the natives of this and other countries; wherever the Bible (which was seldom applied right) failed, the musket and bayonet were resorted to. "
  • March 25, 1858
    "The gentleman says there is a marked resemblance in their laws with regard to marriages that the children of Israel were not allowed to take wives among other nations, and such was the law among Indians...But, if such law ever existed, it was repealed long before my time; and if he will travel among them, and see the number of half-breeds of whites, negroes, and all others that have mixed, and will say that the law has not been repealed, I am certain that he will have the candor to admit that it has been grossly violated, at least. "
  • April 2, 1858
    " So soon as Col. Hawkins learned that Lott was murdered, he sent Christian Limbo, a German, to Cowetaw, to see Billy McIntosh, a half-breed chief. "
  • April 25th, 1858
    " The Uchees contended as long as they lived in the country that they could, man to man, whip the Creeks. And in Gen. Floyd's night fight, their leader, Timpoochy Barnard, fought much better than the friendly Creeks. With equal numbers they could beat the Creeks at a ball play, for I have seen them do it often. "
  • June 13, 1858
    " While at this breastwork, one night, by a campfire, I listened to Elijah Moseley inquiring into his brother's motives for leaving a white family and making his home among a tribe of savages. Bob's reply was, as well as I now recollect, that there was no false swearing among Indians. "
  • From the Columbus (Ga.) Sun
    " An Indian, on foot, running, crying out, at the top of his voice, "Captain Jackson, Captain Jackson." As he passed us, we pointed to Old Hickory, who soon dispatched a company of Tennessee mounted men to aid Mcintosh. The battle was finished ere they reached him. "
  • June 16, 1858
    " Mrs. Stuart was taken almost lifeless as well as senseless, and was a captive until the day I carried her to your camp. After taking her from the boat, they (the Indians) differed among themselves as to whose slave or servant she should be. An Indian by the name of Yellow Hair said he had many years before been sick at or near St. Mary's, and that he felt it a duty to take the woman and treat her kindly, as he was treated so by a white woman when he was among the whites. "
  • June 21, 1858
    " I see in your history, for the first time I ever heard of such a thing, that Alexander McGillivray was an educated man. That's new to me as it would have been to himself, could he have been shown it in his day. The letters purporting to have been written by him which appear in the History of Alabama[2], are well written, and show conclusively that they emanated from no ordinary man. But could the author of those letters and McGillivray to whom they are ascribed, look back, they could say that the world is yet as credulous as in their time. "
  • July 8, 1858
    " The entry of Gen. LaFayette into Alabama, was the most imposing show I witnessed while I lived in the State. "
  • August 12, 1858
    " Fable is fable, and history is history and those men thought it best to mix them as they were writing for a people not unlike many of the present day — who never look into books unless it is for pictures and the marvelous yarns it contains. "
  • September 16, 1858
    " I received a letter the other day from my worthy friend, the Knight of the HorseShoe. I speak nothing but the truth when I say that I am truly glad to hear that he is still living and in good health. I hope he may live as long as suits his convenience. I don't know that I would care if he could live a thousand years, and die rich, so that.I could be left to administer his estate. "
  • October 20, 1858
    " For what I am now going to write, I will no doubt be censured by some. But what need I care, for I am now old, and it will not be long before I appear at a place where a life time of truth will be worth more to me than all the good or bad opinions entertained of me by those I leave behind. "
  • October 31, 1858
    " Some time in April 1814, on the West bank of the Pinchong, now in Montgomery county, Ala., and by a camp fire, I heard [William] Weatherford relate the following particulars about the Creek war... "
  • November 3, 1858
    " Mrs. McGirth raised one son, called James, who was killed at Fort Mims, and she and her daughters were saved by Jim Boy. I lived long with them both; often have I heard them talk it over, when both were sure to get drunk, if whiskey could be had. "
  • November 27, 1858
    " The Captain gave a general invitation to the citizens of Claiborne to attend a party on board the boat. I, with many others, both male and female, attended the party. We danced on the hurricane deck. The fiddler was one Tom Paxton, who played for me when I taught the first dancing school that was ever taught in Montgomery county. "
    APPENDIX

  • Feb 23, 1858
    Letter to General woodward from Alabama historian Albert J. Pickett.
  • Feb.27, 1858
    "A war of extermination was waged by the Creeks against the Yemasses, and finally, at Tallahassee, the last of the warriors were killed — but about a thousand of the young Creek warriors took sweet-hearts among the Yemassee girls, and saved them from death."
    Letter from J. W. K. published in The Montgomery Mail
  • Nov.24, 1858
    J. G. Klinck's first-hand account of the founding and naming of Montgomery.
  • Dec 8, 1858
    "Jesse Evans was considered the best fist-fighter of his size, in his day. Organ Tatum and Ben Ward had the first fist-fight I ever heard of, in Montgomery county. Tatum bit off a piece of Ward's nose."
  • Dec 13, 1858
    "I never saw the inside of a College but once, and that was but for a few minutes, as I only went in to help another boy carry out his trunk, which he was unable to carry himself."
  • Dec.20, 1858
    "While in South Carolina, he became acquainted with my grandmother, who was his second wife. And it is the blood of that grandmother which courses through my veins, that in early life tempted me to quit what the world terms civilized and christian man."
  • Dec 25, 1858
    "This is Christmas — a day in early life that I waited with impatience for its appearance; but it now seems to come and go so fast that it differs little from any other day with me, as all come in such quick succession as to admonish me that, live as long as I may, that I am to witness the return of but few more Christmases."


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INTRODUCTION

Most of the letters which are contained in this little volume were written by Gen. Woodward, without any idea of their being presented to the public in this form. Indeed, the first two, addressed to his friend Mr. Hanrick, were not expected to be published, at all; but being casually shown to the writer of this introduction, he solicited and obtained them for insertion in the columns of The Montgomery Mail, believing that their contents would prove attractive to a large class of readers who feel much interest in all that concerns the early history of the State. Subsequently, Gen. Woodward was kind enough to contribute to the "Mail," (with which the undersigned is connected as senior editor), a number of letters containing much valuable matter relative to the history, customs, &c., of the Creek Confederacy of Indian tribes. About the same time, friends of his caused the publication, in the Columbus Sun and Union Springs Gazette, of several letters written by Gen. W. to them. All these letters, replete as they were with incidents and descriptions of a most interesting character, found favor with the public; and the undersigned was frequently applied to for copies of them, which it was impossible to supply. This suggested to him the idea of publishing the whole in a form convenient both for preservation and reference. He therefore immediately wrote to Gen. Woodward asking his consent to his having the letters collectively published. It was with some difficulty that this consent was obtained, as Gen. Woodward alleged that his want of early education and the inaccuracy of his style unfitted him to appear before the public as a writer of historical sketches. He only yielded, at length, to the argument that he alone, perhaps, of living men, possessed a knowledge of the many interesting facts and traditions he had acquired during an intercourse of nearly half a century with the Indian tribes of the South-west. These facts are stated in justice to Gen. Woodward and with the view of disarming the hypercritical, who might be disposed to be severe upon the homely but effective phraseology with which the General's interesting narrations are clothed.

One or two of the letters addressed to the late lamented Col. Albert J. Pickett, who did his State so much service and himself so much credit by his elaborate History of Alabama[2], were never seen by that gentleman. They were received for publication by the writer of this, about the time of Col. Pickett's last illness. In one of his letters in this volume, Gen. Woodward pays a sincere tribute to the memory of his old friend. In the same letter, he speaks his admiration of and regard for two other prominent Alabamians, lately deceased: ex-Gov. Arthur P. Bagby, and Col. Charles McLemore, of Chambers county.

It is more than twenty years since the writer first saw and knew Gen. Woodward. His personal acquaintance with him was but slight; yet he knew well his reputation in East Alabama, as a brave, rough, warm-hearted man, of fine intellectual endowments, a most sagacious judge of character, extensive knowledge of Creek Indian history, manners and character — with an indomitable will and a sturdy self-reliance, which spoke for itself in his tall, sinewy form and strongly-marked, expressive face. A discriminating observer, at that time, would have selected him out of a thousand, as the man most fertile in resources, most indomitable in the execution of his plans, and possessing in the highest degree the physical qualities most needed in the emergencies and hardships of a semi-Indian life. His exterior was rough, his manners military and at times abrupt, but those who knew him best, were well aware that he had a heart large enough for any deed of real benevolence. The presuming or pretentious he mercilessly flayed with a biting sarcasm, of which he was master; and many anecdotes are told, illustrative of his powers of repartée. But to the weak and unprotected, he was and is invariably considerate and kind. In proof of this, it may be mentioned here, that when he learned thro' Col. Banks, of Columbus, Ga., that Mrs. Dill, (whom he and others rescued from the Indians in Florida, in 1818,) was still living at or near Fort Gaines, he immediately transmitted, thro' the writer of this, a sum of money to Col. Banks, for the relief of the old lady's necessities.

Few men have had better opportunities for studying the Indian character and investigating their customs, than Gen. Woodward. Very early in life, as appears from two autobiographical letters which were received at so late a day as to compel their insertion in the Appendix to this little volume, he was brought into contact with the Red Man; and, stirred by the Indian blood in his own veins, he studied his character and traditions lovingly and earnestly. His early appointment to the command of a body of friendly Indians, in time of war, proves that he was considered to know them and to have influence over them.

As to the consideration in which Gen. Woodward was held by his superiors, it is not improper to state that the writer of this has now in his possession an original letter from Gen. Jackson, speaking of Gen. W., as "a brave, intrepid and gallant soldier." It bears date, "Nashville, September 30, 1819."

It is a matter of great regret to the writer, that many errors have unavoidably crept into the publication. The difficulty of decyphering Indian and other proper names has been the chief cause.

In conclusion, the writer of this would remark, that he believes that the unpretending pages which follow contain a very great deal of matter of high historical value to the people of Alabama and Georgia. For that reason, he has taken the trouble to collect such of the Letters as had been published previously and to induce Gen. Woodward to write others. For the task of arranging, pruning, etc., he has had neither time nor health; but he trusts that even in their present crude form, they may effect much good, in the correction of several popular errors and in familiarising our people with the later history of those tribes that have recently departed from our borders.

Montgomery, Ala., Jan. 15, 1859.
 
J. J. HOOPER.


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REMINISCENCES

WHEELING, WINN PARISH, LA.
May 2, 1857
E. HANRICK, Esq.

— My Old Friend:

The Montgomery Mail comes occasionally directed to me at this office; and, whether the paper is paid for or not, I am unable to say, though I requested a gentleman to do so, and he says the money was forwarded. If such is not the case, call on the Editor and pay what is due, and also pay for another year's subscription, and write to me at this office, and you shall have your money immediately. It is through the Mail I frequently hear you are living, which I hope will be the case for many years to come. My friend, how time and things have changed since first we met! I think it has been forty years, the last winter, since I first saw you, at Granville, Pitt county, N. C., rolling tar barrels. And your city, Montgomery, about that time, or shortly after, was started, or begun, by Andrew Dexter, and now, I suppose, is one of the most desirable spots in the Southwest. I knew the spot where Montgomery stands before any white man ever thought of locating there. When I look back on things as they were and what they are now, it makes me feel — as I am — old. You and I have lived in fast times, which our heads will show, my friend; so, let it rock on — we will only sleep the sounder when it comes to our time to rest. I also see announced in the Mail the death of several old friends, among them Gen. Shackelford, whom I have known from my boyhood. I was with him in Florida, in 1812, in an expedition against the Seminoles. There are but few of that detachment of Georgians now living — in fact, I know of none, unless it be Dr. Fort, of Macon, Ga., John H. Howard, of Columbus, Ga., Col. R. Broadnax, of Ala, and myself. If there are any more of them, it is very few, and I have lost the hang of them; but, should I live, I will be in Milledgeville, Ga., on the first day of July, 1862, which will be fifty years from the time we started on that expedition. If you are then living in Montgomery, I will give you a call.

I also see that my old friend, Major Thomas M. Cowles, is no more. He was a good man — I knew him before he was a man. He was fit to live in any country that God may think proper to occupy with honest men. He belonged to my staff, and accompanied me to Fort Mitchell, with an escort under the command of Gen. Wm. Taylor, to conduct Gen. LaFayette to Montgomery. I shall never forget a visit that Major Cowles and myself paid to Billy Weatherford, the Quadroon, him about whom so much has been said and so little known. We remained some days, and among our crowd were Zach. McGirth, Davy Tait, the half-brother to Weatherford, old Sam. Moniac, who, many years before, had accompanied Alex. McGillivray to New York, in General Washington's time. I have often thought that I would give you and friend Hooper, of the Mail, a little sketch of what I had learned from those men and others, in relation to Indian matters; but they are all dead, and what I have heard and know would, in many instances, contradict what has gone to the world as history, and I do not know that mankind would be better off, even if I could undeceive and give them what I do know in relation to Indian history, and so I will let it pass. But, still, there is one thing I want, if it can be got hold of, and, if George Stiggins is living in your country, he has it. It is a manuscript given to me by the widow of Col. Hawkins. It is in the hand-writing of Christian Limbo, who lived with Col. Hawkins many years. It was copied from Col. Hawkins' own manuscript, which was burned shortly after his death. I knew Col. Hawkins well. He knew more about Indians and Indian history, and early settlements and expeditions of the several European nations that undertook to settle colonies in the South and Southwest, than all the men that ever have or will make a scrape of a pen upon the subject. The loss of his papers was certainly a very great loss to those who would wish to know things as they really were, and not as they wished them. Stiggins, you know, had some learning, and was a half breed of the Netchis tribe, tho' raised among the Creeks. He spoke of writing a history of the Creeks and other Southern tribes, and I loaned him my papers. I presume he has done by this time what he contemplated, and please see him and get my papers, if you can, and take care of them until you have a chance to send them to me. You will also find among the papers some in my hand-writing, that I intended for a Mr. Daniel K. Whitaker, of Charleston, S. C., who was concerned in a Southern literary journal.

Yours, truly, old friend,
  THOS. S. WOODWARD.


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WHEELING, WINN PARISH, LA.,
December 9, 1857.
E. HANRICK, Esq.:

My Old Friend: — Your letter came to hand safe, after taking its time, as I have, in going through the world, quite leisurely. You will find five dollars enclosed: pay yourself, and hand the other two and a half to the editor of the Mail: say to him, that after he has worked that out, and he learns that I have not worked out, he may continue to send his paper. I see my letter to you, of May last, in the Mail. The editor speaks in very flattering terms of my capability in giving sketches and making them accurate and interesting. I would be proud that I could do so, and prove to his readers that he was not mistaken. It is true, I have known Alabama a great while, and many of its earliest settlers — particularly Indians and Indian countrymen. And I would most willingly, if I thought any facts that have come within my knowledge, or circumstances related to me by others in whom I could place the most implicit reliance, would be interesting to the readers of the Mail, give them. But as I write no better than in my younger days, but much worse; and as anything I might write would to most persons be of little interest, I must now abandon it. Besides, you know my capacity for embellishment (the only thing that suits too many readers,) is not such as would render my sketches very interesting to many. I have no doubt but that, if I could be with you, and many more old acquaintances that I left in Alabama, (and hope they still live,) and could get around a lightwood fire, I could interest you — or, at least, spin over old times and bring many things to your recollection that you have forgotten. (I do not allude to old store accounts. Though you have lost many, I never heard of your forgetting one.)

I often wish myself back in Alabama, and have as often regretted leaving Tuskegee. I was the founder of Tuskegee. I selected the place for the county site, or place for the court house, in 1833. I built the first house on that ridge, though James Dent built the first house on the court house square, after the lots were laid off. The day I made the selection, there was a great ball-play with the Tusgegees, Chunnanugges, Chehaws and Tallesees. A Col. Deas, a South Carolinian, was with me. Ned, those were good days, were they not? I can never recall them, nor many other things that were very cheering to me then. I wonder if my five cedar trees, that I planted at the McGarr place when I owned it, are living yet? Ned, I, in company with my family, old Aunt Betsy Kurnells, (or Connells,) Tuskeneha, and old John McQueen, dug up those cedars, when they were very small, from under a large cedar that shaded the birth-place of Ussa Yoholo, or, Black Drink, who, after the murder of General Thompson, in Florida, was known to the world as Oceola. This man was the great grand-son of James McQueen. You know his father — the little Englishman, Powell. His mother was Polly Copinger. The rail road from Montgomery to West Point runs within five feet, it not over the place, where the cabin stood in which Billy Powell, or Ussa Yoholo, was born. The old cedar was destroyed by Gen. McIver's negroes, when grading the road. It was in an old field, between the Nufaupba (what is now called Ufaupee), and a little creek that the Indians called Catsa Bogah, which mouths just below where the rail road crosses Nufaupba; and on the Montgomery side of Nufaupba, and on a plantation owned by a Mr. Vaughn, when I left the country, rests the remains of old James McQueen, a Scotchman, who died in 1811, aged — from what Col. Hawkins and many others said he was — 128 years. He informed Col. Hawkins that he was born 1683, and came into the Creek nation in 1716, a deserter from an English vessel anchored at St. Augustine, East Florida, for striking a naval officer. When I planted those cedars, I had a wife and three children. I thought, then, to make at the foot of one of them a resting place. But more than twenty years have elapsed, and many changes have taken place with me and those that were with me then, and I care but little now when or where I may be picked up. But still, I would be glad to know that the cedars were spared; for, none who knew the hands of those that assisted me in planting them there, could think of molesting them — unless, there should be one with a marring hand, like him that destroyed the old lettered beech at the old Federal crossing of the Persimmon creek, and the old Council Oak that once stood in front of Suckey Kurnells' or Connells' house, which you knew well. Yes, it was under that oak, where you and I have heard many a good yarn spun, both by our white as well as red friends — many of whom have long since gone to that world of which we read and talk so much, and so much dreaded by many, (if not more,) and which never can be known to living man. Yes, friend, it was under that oak — held as sacred by the Indians, and should have been as memorable among Alabamians, as the old Charter Oak of New England was, among the people of the North where you and I have aided in placing the brand of Molly Thompson upon many a black bottle. I rented out the plantation one year, while I owned it, and forbid the tree being touched. The man renting it complained so much about it shading his crops, I allowed either three or five dollars for it, I now forget which, and would now pay $100 to have it living, as it was when I left the place, were it possible to restore it. You have often heard of our mutual friend, old Capt. Billy Walker, tell about him and myself, camping there with Cols. Hawkins, Barnett and McDonald, of the army, and Gen. John Sevier, one of the heroes of King's Mountain. (Col. Barnett was the father of Tom. and Nat. Barnett.) On the side of the Indians there were Billy McIntosh, Big Warrior, Alex. Kurnells, and many others. Kurnells was the interpreter, wearing that Iroquois coat you have often seen in the possession of the big woman, his wife. On that occasion, Kurnells exhibited many Indian curiosities; among them was the buck's horn, resembling a mans' hand, which you have seen in my possession since. Some years ago I gave the horn to Bishop Soule, of Nashville. There is not an Indian in the Creek nation that ever visited Alex. Kurnell's, but would recognize the horn as quick as you would your horse shoe. Gen. Sevier lived but a few days after this, and his remains lie in the hill near old Fort Decatur; but not a stone or board marks the resting place of the patriot, which is the case with hundreds of others that lived in his day, and like himself, served their country for their country's good, and not their own.

This is becoming tedious to you, no doubt, and I must stop. But you can excuse it, as I live alone and have so little to employ my time about, that my mind is often led to contemplate things that have passed and would have been forgotten, but for my lonely situation. It affords me some satisfaction to think and talk, (when I meet an old friend,) of old times; and after commencing to write, these old things would appear, and I felt bound to give them some attention.

Yours,
 
T. S. W.


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WINN PARISH, LA., Dec. 24, 1857 J. J. HOOPER, Esq.:

I wrote a letter to my old friend, E. Hanrick, of Montgomery, last May, in which I spoke of giving you some few sketches of Indians and their history. Why I alluded to these things, I had a short time before seen an extract in your paper taken, I think, from a Mobile paper, making some inquiry about the true meaning or the signification of Alabama. And from the article, I supposed the writer to think that the word Alabama was of the Jewish origin, by giving the name of Esau's wife, who spelt her name Al-i-ba-ma, (if she could spell.) Now whether she borrowed her name from Jedediah Morse, or he the name from her, it matters not, as both spell it alike. The word Alabama, and many other words among the Indians, as well as customs, have been seized upon by some to establish a fact that never existed: that is, to prove that the North American Indians descended from the Lost Tribes of Israel. Now it would be as easy to prove that such tribes never existed, and much easier to prove that they dwindled away among those Eastern nations that frequently held them in bondage, than to prove that anything found in the native Indian is characteristic of the Jew. I have traveled among a great many tribes, and circumcision is unknown to them; and besides, an Indian in his native state is proverbial for his honesty, and from the records handed to us as authentic, the great Author of all nature was put to much trouble to keep the Jews and the property of their neighbors in their proper places.

I will return to my letter. I see it published in an October number of your paper, and shortly after its appearance, I received a letter from a Mr. J. D. Driesbach, of Baldwin Co., Ala, requesting me to give him what information I could of the persons whose names were mentioned in my letters to Mr. Hanrick, and any thing I knew of Indians and their history that I thought would be interesting; also, informing me that he had seen in the possession of Joseph Stiggins, the son of Geo. Stiggins, a manuscript of George Stiggins, which had been loaned to Col. Pickett when he wrote the History of Alabama[2]: and whether interesting or not, I scribbled off some twenty or thirty pages and sent to him, and among other things I gave him what I understood to be the origin of Alabama, as we have it from the Indians. I find in Col. Pickett's answer to Mr. Hobbs, that he agrees with me how Alabama took its name. I am satisfied that Col. Pickett is correct. I also stated to Mr. Driesbach, that I had heard Col. Hawkins say in his time, that he had made every inquiry in his power to ascertain if Alabama had any other meaning than the mere name of an Indian town, but never could, unless the name — as it was possible — might be the Indian corruption of the Spanish words for good water, though he doubted that.

Col. Pickett is correct, as to the Alabama Town being just below Montgomery, for I was at it when they lived there, and it was called Esanchatty, from the red bluffs on which a portion of Montgomery is built. The Tarwassaw Town was a little lower down the river than the Colonel has it, though it is a matter of no importance. The Autauga, or what the Indians called Autauga or Dumplin Town, was at the place where Washington is in Autauga county. The Alabamas, and those little towns connected with them, extended down the river as far as Beach creek, that mouths just above Selma, and up the river to where Coosawda is — on the Autauga side. To spell it the way the Indians pronounced it, and the way Col. Hawkins spelt, is Coowarsartda. The Alabamas differed from the Musqua or Muscogees, as do the Choctaws from the Chickasaws; but were what the Indians call the "same fire-side" people. There was much of their dialect that differed from that of the common Creek or Musqua, as the Western Indians used to call them, and no doubt once they were a different tribe.

About the close of the American Revolution, a large portion of the Alabamas and Coowarsartdas returned to Texas on the Trinity, being under the control of a Chief called Red Shoes, or Stillapikachatta. I visited these Indians in 1816, in company with Mr. Angus Gilchrist and Mr. Edward McLauchlin. Mr. McLauchlin was the best Indian interpreter I ever knew, except Hamly, who was raised by Forbes and Panthom, in Florida. Red Shoes was then living, and lived for year after. I inquired much into his history and that of his people. He gave the same account of their being driven from their old homes in the West and their settlement in Alabama and a part of Georgia, as has been given me by the Creeks. And if Indian tradition and what I have heard from Col. Hawkins — who, I think, was the most sensible man I ever was acquainted with, and whose opportunities were as good if not much better than any one else of his day possessed, to collect correct information in relation to the early settlements of the Creeks and their confederates in Alabama and Georgia — are to be relied on, Col. Pickett must have been wrongly informed as to the fights with the Muscogees and Alabamas upon the sources of Red river, as well as to the Muscogees settling in Ohio, the Alabamas settling on the Yazoo, and the destruction of their fort by DeSoto, and the Alabamas being the first to settle in what is now known as the Creek country.

It has always been a contested point, with the Indians, whether Tuckabatchee, or old Cusetaw opposite Fort Mitchell on the Chattahoochee river, was settled first; but it is generally conceded that Cusetaw was settled first. These two towns have, in almost every instance, furnished the head Chiefs of the nation: Tuckabatchee furnishing the upper town Chief — Cusetaw, the lower town Chief. This fact is well known to all who have been well acquainted with the Creeks. Besides, John Ferdinand Soto, who by most persons has been called Hernando DeSoto, after landing his forces in Florida, passed through a portion of Georgia, and across the entire State of Alabama, before he could have reached the Yazoo in Mississippi. And in addition to this, one of the severest battles Soto had with the Indians, was fought with the Creeks at what is now known as Cuwally. It is either in Montgomery or Tallapoosa county; I do not now know how the county lines run. Cuwally is a name given it by the whites, not knowing how to give it the Indian pronunciation. To spell it as the Indians pronounced it, it would be Thleawalla, which signifies rolling bullet. Thlea, is an arrow or bullet; walla, is to roll. The Indians say it was there that a spent ball was seen rolling on the ground, and from that the place took its name. Besides, the Tuckabatchees have now in their possession a number of plates of copper in various shapes, which the Spaniards used as a kind of shield, to protect themselves from the arrows of the Indians. These plates were taken from the Spaniards at that fight. And from what Col. Pickett says of the fights upon the sources of Red River it would appear that the Indians were some years on their route going East. I have not seen nor heard any traditionary account of any thing of the sort in my intercourse with the various tribes that I have been among, and the sources of Red River must have been very imperfectly known in that day, by any of the Europeans that had visited this country, and are still very imperfectly known by many of our own people to this day; for Red river does not, as believed by many, head in the Rocky Mountains, but is a mere leak or drain from the prairies, except those little streams that head in the Ozark hills of Arkansas. Besides, it is not such a country as Indians would likely stop long in, particularly traveling on foot, as they were obliged to do; for the Southwestern Indians knew nothing of horses until they were introduced into the country by the Spaniards. And building forts with logs, by a people who knew nothing of the uses of the axe, nor had any, would, I think, be a tough undertaking. All that I have seen and heard satisfies me at least, that the Creeks, Alabamas and the other little bands connected with them, originally inhabited the skirts of timbered country between the Rio Grande or Del Norte and the Mississippi river, near the Gulf coast, which the names of the creeks, rivers, and many other things, will show. The Choctaws, Chickasaws, Nitches, Nacogdoches and Natchitoches Indians inhabited pretty much the same country.

It is true that Cortez found a much more civilized and much more timid race to contend with, than any of the tribes that I have mentioned. And that the Creeks, Alabamas and others that I have named, ever were or considered themselves subjects of the great Mexican Empire, I am very much inclined to doubt, from what I know of them. Even the present civilized and christianized rulers of Mexico, who are almost to a man of the old race, never exercise any control over the Indians within her borders, and this has been the case ever since she got from under the Spanish yoke.

I can neither read French nor Spanish; but the few translations in English that I have seen taken from the travels of the early visitors, both of the French and Spanish, to this country, are very contradictory, and for that reason I have been inclined to credit the Indian tradition. And, even if a history taken from European travelers, somewhat in the shape of a novel, is to be relied on, some man, in his account of the conquest of Florida, admits that the Creeks, Muscogees or Coosas disputed the passage of Soto through the country — that is, Alabama and Georgia. It has been a long time since I read it, and then but little; but if I am not mistaken, it spoke of a war, or battle, with a Chief called Tuscaloosa. The Creeks themselves said that there was once among them a giant Chief, Tustanugga Lusta, or Black Warrior, who fought with Soto, and that his home was on the river of that name. I have seen no history of Louisiana except the Tax Collectors' Book — and that I dislike to read — and cannot say at what time Bienville and his brother, Iberville, came to the country. But one thing is certain, the French knew something of Mobile and its immediate vicinity at an early day; but they knew very little of the interior of Alabama, until after the defeat of Gen. Braddock, near Pittsburg, which was in 1755. The next year they come down the Ohio and Mississippi rivers and drove the Nitches Indians from where the present city of Natchez, Miss., now is. The Nitches Indians immediately emigrated to join their old Western friends, the Creeks, and settle at the Talisee old fields, on Taliseehatchy or Talisee creek, now in Talladega county, Ala.; and the French very shortly after moved up the Alabama river, to the junction of Coosa and Tallapoosa rivers, and built a little village near to old Fort Jackson. I have seen Indians, as well as negroes, that traded with the French while there, though their stay was but a few years. James McQueen, a Scotchman — the first white man I ever heard of being among the Creeks — and a Polander, by the name of Monlar, with the Nitches Indians and Creeks, broke up the French settlement at the fork of the rivers. And it was on the return of the French down the Alabama river, that they threw up an entrenchment at Durand's or Durant's Bend, and another at the mouth of Cahawba — and the Alabam Indians were said to be the most bitter enemies, except the Nitches, that the French had. We are to judge from Col. Pickett's version of the matter, that there were neither Alabamas nor Muscogees in what is known to the whites as the Creek country, before Soto passed through. The Chattahoochee Indians, who were Muscogees, would show, as long as they lived there, many places where DeSoto or Soto had camped. There is a place on the Apalachicola that is yet known as one of Soto's camps. The Indians call it Spanny Wakka — that is, "the Spaniards lay there." The Indians could tell of the old Spanish fortification in Jones county, Ga., also the one on the Ocmulgee, above Fort Hawkins, and it is evident they must have been in the country before Soto passed through — and, besides, I was in Florida in 1818, and had with me many of the Creeks, who could point out places where the Spaniards, under Soto, had camped, and the marks of old roads and causeways were then visible. And with the single exception of Soto himself, all the early explorers of that country, who were mostly Spanish and some French, would only ascend the navigable rivers a small distance, in water crafts constructed for the purpose, and could have known but little of the indians in the interior. And as to Red River, when Cortez conquered Mexico, it is a doubt with me if it was then a tributary of the Mississippi river, as the Atchafalaya evidently was once the channel of Red River, and made its way to the Gulf of Mexico through Berwick's Bay; and, even in Soto's time did it go into the Mississippi river, it could only have been navigated, with small crafts, as far up as Alexandria, for the river above the falls will show that it was once a raft, as far up as Long Prairie, in Arkansas, and that would have prevented early explorers from knowing much of the sources of the river or what Indians, if any, lived on it.

All these circumstances induce me to believe that Col. Pickett is mistaken, and the source from which he derived a part of his information is, or was, not very reliable; and, so far as Indian tradition is concerned, I think my chance to have obtained correct information in relation to Indian history equal, at least, to that of Col. Pickett's. The accounts that I have had from the Indians themselves, and from Col. Hawkins, whose opportunity must have been as good as any one of his time, or any one who has lived since, are, that Cortez's object was gold, and that the people he first encountered in Mexico were somewhat civilized and very timid; and, after subduing them and taking possession of the City of Mexico — if it could be called a city — he then commenced extending his conquests or robberies up the Gulf coast, in the direction of what is now Tampico and Tamaulipas, and even as far as what is now Texas, where he encountered the Musquas or Muscogees, Alabamas, and others that I have mentioned; but finding them to be a much more hardy, warlike race than the Mexicans, and in order to hold on to what he had taken and subdued of the timid ones, he found it necessary to kill or drive these war-like tribes from the country, which with the great advantage of firearms, he succeeded in doing. The Muscogees and their confederates crossed the Mississippi river and called a halt at Baton Rouge, which is known to this day as Red Stick or Club. The Nitches, from the river which bears their name in Texas, crossed the Mississippi river and settled where the city of Natchez is now. The Choctaws settled the country on Yazoo, Pearl, Leaf, Chickasawha, and as far as the Tombecba rivers. The Chickasaws settled at Chickasaw Bluff or Memphis. The Creeks, after a short stay at Baton Rouge, moved and settled on the Alabama and its tributaries, the Black Warrior and the Chattahoochee, and Flint rivers, and, in time, went as far east as the Oconee river, but never went farther in that direction, and did not make any settlement on the Oconee until after the whites began to encroach on the Indians of that country from the East. The Indians that originally inhabited from the middle parts of the Carolinas (particularly South Carolina,) and Georgia to the seaboard, were known as Yamacraws or Yamasees, Oconees, Ogeeches, and Sowanokees or Peoples of the Glades. The Sowanokees are known as the Shawnees — the other Indians know them by no other name to this day but Sowanokee; and the Savannah river was known as Sowanokee Hatchee Thlocka, which signifies the Big River of the Glades, or what we call Savannah. And these Indians the Creek found to be their equals as warriors; but when the whites began to approach them from the east, and the Creeks already very close on the west, the Sowanokees or Shawnees fell back on the north and northwest. Tecumseh was of that stock. The other little tribes, with the Uchees, they being the "same fireside" Indians with the Shawnees, all dwindled away among the Creeks and lost their language, except the Uchees — they still retain theirs.

One other circumstance that convinces me that the Creeks and Alabamas had become pretty much one people before they settled Alabama and Georgia, is that the tribes they incorporated into their nation after settling the Creek country never would come into the family arrangement, which arrangement I will try and explain to you. They were laid off in families — that is, Bears, Wolves, Panthers, Foxes and many others — also, what they termed the Wind Family, which was allowed more authority than any family in the nation. There was nothing in their laws to prevent blood cousins from marrying, but never to marry in the same family — thus, a man of the Bear family could marry a woman of the Fox family, or any other family he pleased and the children would be called Fox. In all cases, the children took the mother's family name. Years ago, you could not find an Indian in the nation but could tell you his family. But whisky has destroyed many of their old customs as well as the Indians themselves.

There is too much of this to publish, even if it were worth publishing. Read it, show it to Col. Pickett, burn it and send me his History of Alabama[2].

Yours,
 
T. S. W.


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WINN PARISH, LA.
Jan. 10, 1858.
TO J. J. HOOPER, Esq.:

I wrote to you some time back some sketches relative to the Creek Indians, which no doubt you found too long, too tedious, and too uninteresting to publish. In that I sent you I made mention of a family arrangement among the Creeks that differed from all other tribes that I know or have traveled among. The Creeks are laid off in families, viz: Bears, Tigers, Wolves, Foxes, Deers, and almost all the animals that were known to them. All these families had certain privileges, and every one of a family knew to what family he belonged and what privileges were allowed. There was also what they termed the Wind family, which was allowed more privileges than all the rest. For instance, when an offender escaped from justice, all the families were permitted to pursue a certain number of days, and no more, except the Wind family, which had the right to pursue and arrest at any time — there was no limit to their privileges in bringing an offender to justice. There was nothing to prevent blood relations from marrying with each other, but a woman of the Bear family was at liberty to take a husband in any family except a Bear; so it was with all the other families, but none were permitted to marry in the same family; for instance, if a man of the Wolf family marry a woman of the Fox family, the children would all be Foxes. Such has been the custom among the Creeks from the earliest history I have had of them, though their intercourse with the whites has changed many of their old habits and customs even since my time. In fact, I know a number of words in their languages and names of things and places that are not spoken or pronounced as they were when I first knew them. This has been occasioned by whites not being able to give the Indian pronunciation, and the Indians in many cases have conformed to that of the whites. A horse, for instance, is now called Chelocko by the whites who speak Indian, and by most of the Indians; but originally it was Echo Tlocko, signifying a Big Deer — Echo is a deer and Thlocko is something large. The first horses the Creeks ever saw were those introduced by the Spaniards, and they called them big deer, as they resembled that animal more than any other they knew — this is their tradition, and I am satisfied that it is correct. There is the Indian town above Montgomery, Coowersartda, that is called by the whites Coosada; also the town ThIeawalla, where Soto fought the Creeks, it is called by the whites Cuwally, and many of the Indians raised of late years call it as the whites do, and do not know what its original name was, nor what its meaning is. Thela is an arrow or bullet, and Walla is to roll; the proper name is Rolling Bullet; and many other such alterations have been made that have come within my knowledge. Indians in almost every instance learn our language quicker than we learn theirs, particularly our pronunciation. An Indian, if he speaks our language at all, almost invariably pronounces it as those do from whom he learns it. If he learns it from a white man that speaks it well, the Indian does the same; if he learns it from a negro he pronounces as the negro does. You may take the best educated European that lives, that does not speak our language, and an Indian that does not speak it; let both learn it; if the Indian does not learn so much, he will always speak what he does learn more distinctly than the European. This will no doubt be disputed by many, but I know it to be true from actual observation, and I do not pretend to account for why it is so, unless it is intended that at some time Americans shall all be Americans.

I believe I mentioned the name of James McQueen before. This man came amongst the Creeks as early as 1716 and lived among them until 1811. He was said to be, by those who knew him well, very intelligent, and had taken great pains to make himself acquainted with the history of the Creeks. From the early day in which he came among them, and they knowing at that time but little of the whites, their traditions were, no doubt, much more reliable than anything that can now be obtained from them. From what I have learned from this man, or from those who learned it from him, the Muscogees, or as they were originally known to the other tribes, Musquas, and all the little towns or bands that composed the Creek Confederacy, was a Confederacy before they crossed to the east of Mississippi river. From what I have been able to learn, Musqua, or Muscogee, signified Independent. Besides I knew a Capt. John S. Porter, formerly of the U. S. Army, who, some thirty years ago, with a few Creeks of the McIntosh party in Arkansas, visited California and went up the Pacific coast to the Columbia river, and returned by the way of Salt Lake, and on his return to Arkansas he wrote to me, giving an account of his travels. The writing covered some three or four sheets of paper; a great deal of it was very interesting. I do not now recollect whether I loaned it to George Stiggins, or a Mr. Whitaker, of Charleston, S. C. But I recollect among the many accounts of his travels, that on the head waters, or at least the waters of the Colorado of the West, he found a small remnant of the original Musqua. They spoke mostly a broken Spanish dialect, but still retained much of their old language and old family customs. They gave pretty much the same account of being driven from their old homes that I have learned from the Creeks. These people informed Capt. Porter that their nation was once strong, and they had many languages; that they inhabited the country between the Rio del Norte and Mississippi river, or Owea Coafka, or river of cane. They also gave him the original Indian name of the Del Norte, but I forget it; but Owea Coafka is what the Creeks call the Mississippi river. They also stated to him that they lived near the Gulf, on what they called Owea Thlocko Marhe, signifying the largest water. They say they were driven off by the Echo Thlock Ulgees, or horsemen, or what the Creeks in our language would call the big deer men. Echothlock is a big deer, as I stated before, and the proper name of the horse Echothlock; Ulgee means horsemen. They also stated that long after they left their old homes, and horses had become plenty, that the Indians learned the use of them, and that a number of the little tribes that once lived on the rivers and Gulf had taken to the prairies. They also gave Capt. Porter an account of a long war with some tribes high up on the Rio del Norte, and that one of the most warlike tribes had gone east. They called them as the present Creeks do, Hopungieasaw, and what are now known to the whites as Pyankeshaws. I recollect two women that Tuskenea carried to the Creek nation, of the Pyankeshaws, as the whites called them, but the Creeks call them Hopungieasaw, or dancing Indians.

You see that I differ with Col. Pickett as to the early settlement of the Creek Indians in Alabama; and should I be correct, it need not matter with the Colonel, for you know most people believe a history whether it be correct or not. I have not seen his History of Alabama[2], and all I have seen or heard from him, was his answer to Mr. Hobbs' inquiry; and I have no idea that he has written anything but he felt authorized to do from the sources that he received his information. But authors sometimes may err, and others wilfully misrepresent. When that is the case, we have to judge from circumstances. The Colonel says that Soto passed Alabama before the Muscogees reached that country. The Indians say they were there and fought him: and from the number of copper shields, with a small brass swivel, (that an old man by the name of Tooley worked up into bells,) would go to show and to prove that the Indians were correct. I have often seen the copper plates or shields, and a piece of the swivel, and from the cuttings or carvings on it, it was evidently of Spanish make. And it was only some twenty years after Cortez conquered Mexico, that Soto commenced his march from Tampa Bay, and had too few men to sacrifice them in storming a strong work, when it could effect nothing, for an Indian Fort in a remote wilderness could have interfered but little with his march westward. And how could the Alabamas have known that he intended passing that way? It seems to me that a people so illy prepared to build forts; having no axes, spades nor any implement of the sort, would have found it much easier to have concealed themselves, had it been necessary, in some of those large swamps which abound in the Yazoo country; and from what I know of Indians, they would not give one swamp or cane brake for forty forts. And as to the Muscogees ever having been subjects of the great Mexican empire, it is very doubtful, for Mexico was the name of the City itself, and applied to the town only. It was the city or town where the principal chiefs or body of the Aztecs, Anahuacs, or as the other Indians called them, Auchinang resided.

The Creeks or Muscogees, the Iroquois or Six Nations, were all the Indians that I have known or heard of forming themselves into anything like a confederacy. The balance, as far as my information extends, have been separate tribes, with a separate language, with their own peculiar customs, except in a few instances where two or more tribes would unite in case of a war. The Creeks, as I mentioned before, originally inhabited the skirts of timbered country bordering on the Gulf of Mexico, and between the Del Norte and Mississippi rivers. When the Muscogees, Nitches, Choctaws and Chickasaws crossed to the east of the Mississippi river, a town of Indians yet among the Creeks, the Autisees or Itisees, has for ages been called Red Stick. They settled at Baton Rouge, and no doubt it was from that tribe or town that the early French settlers gave it its present name. Eto-chatty, signifies red tree or red wood; but ask an Indian that is acquainted with the original names and customs, what a Red Stick Warrior, is, and he will tell you it is an Autisee or Otisee. I have taken great pains, in times passed, to have these things explained to me by the oldest and most sensible Indians and Indian countrymen. The Muscogees, from their own account, made but a short stay on the Mississippi or its waters. They emigrated to Alabama and Georgia, and settled mostly on the large creeks and rivers and near the falls and shoals, for the purpose of fishing. The Indians who inhabited the Gulf coast, and that of the Atlantic as far east as Beaufort, S. C., and the rivers as far back as latitude 33¡ north, previous to the settlement of the Muscogees in the country, were known as Paspagolas, Baluxies, Movilas, Apilaches, Hichetas, Uchys, Yemacraws, Wimosas, Sowanokas or Shawneys. Sowanoka Hatchy is the original name of Savannah river; that is, the river of the glades.

The Seminoles is a mixed race of almost all the tribes I have mentioned, but mostly Hitchetas and Creeks. The Hitchetas have by the whites been looked upon as being originally Muscogees, but they were not. They had an entirely different language of their own, and were in the country when the Creeks first entered it. Seminole, in the Creek language, signifies wild, or runaway, or outlaw.

There have many conflicting accounts about John Ferdinand Soto — when, where and how he died, and where buried. According to McQueen's account, and that of the oldest Indians in the nation when he came to it, Soto died in what is called Natchitoches parish, in this State, at the last fort he built, called the Azadyze; and the oldest Spanish settlers of this country have corroborated McQueen's account. There are yet to be found among the people of this country, some of the descendants of Soto's men, and some of his name. All the Indian traditions, and those of the early Spanish settlers, say he died and was buried at Azadyze. It is now 142 years since McQueen first came to the Creek country, and Indians that were then living even at the age of 75 years, could give a very correct tradition of things that had happened only 80 or 100 years before. Indians are very particular in their relations of circumstances and events, and not half so apt to embellish as the whites, and the march of Soto through their country, and his fights with them, were affairs not likely to be forgotten by them, and would be handed down for a generation or two at least, very correct, no doubt. Even in my time, I have heard the old Indians, in their conversations, allude to the white warrior, or Tustanugga Hatke, as they called Soto.

You see I write, spell and dictate badly, but have given you what I heard from others who were best calculated to inform me upon such subjects. If there is anything in this that you have not seen or heard before, and you think it worth publishing, do so; if not, let it pass: for I assure you that I am not desirous to become conspicuous as a writer in a newspaper, or anything else — though I doubt much if the man lives that has seen as much of old Indian times, and heard as much of the early history of the Creeks, as I have. I would like to be where I could sit and tell it over to you; I could make you understand it much better.

May you live long and die rich.
 
T. S. W.


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WHEELING, WINN PARISH, LA.,
March 21, 1858.
To. J. J. HOOPER, Esq.

Dear Sir — Some two weeks back I received the History of Alabama[2], sent me by my old friend "Horse Shoe Ned." It is a present made me by its Author — whom I have known from his childhood, and of course prize it highly, not only as a present from its author, but for the many new things to me that it contains. I should have commenced this sooner, but my son who resides near Hot Springs, Arkansas, and the only one of my family that is left me, has been with me for the last three weeks and has just left for his home. That, with my inability to write at best, will make this not very interesting to you or your readers. What I write I dedicate to those that read it. You will see from what I write, and from what I may write hereafter, that I differ from Col. Pickett, and what I write is not intended, nor can it detract in the least from Col. Pickett, as an author, a gentleman, or a scholar. I am not vain enough to think that I could write anything like a history of any country (even if all I should write were true) that would be interesting, while Col. Pickett is very capable of doing it; he has not only the advantages of a classical education, but was raised by one of the most intelligent fathers in Alabama; and as to his mother, she has had her equals no doubt, but there is no one living that can boast of a mother that was her superior. As to my own parents, I can say nothing more than I recollect to have seen them and the only brother I ever had, laid in their last resting place, within six miles of where Savannah river takes its name. My father died in Franklin county, Georgia, near sixty years back; my brother about fifty-six years; my mother about fifty-three years back — leaving an only sister and myself, upon the charity of the best world that I have seen, or any one else, if they will take it right. Now, sir, my whole history through life (though passing through some pretty rough scenes by-the-by) would not be as interesting as the lives of Washington and Marion, by Old Parson Weems; so I will close my own biography, and commence with De Soto's march through Florida.

Tampa Bay is the point, admitted by all, where Soto (as I shall call him) debarked his men. His army, composed of one thousand men, some on horseback and some on foot, greyhounds as fleet as the wind, bloodhounds large and ferocious, and in addition to all these, were lots of Catholic priests, clergymen and monks. This was certainly a very imposing show, and was a show very well calculated and no doubt did impose upon the unoffending natives, and the tons of iron, handcuffs, chains, neckcollars and the like, were things well calculated to inspire the natives with very exalted notions of the Christianity they were soon to be taught. No doubt but that portion of the narrative is in a great measure true; so far as regards the true motives of those that set the expedition on foot. The object was gold or other plunder, and to diffuse among the natives a religion (as then understood and practiced by those who were to propagate it) that even had more laudable means been used to establish it, would have benefited the Indians very little more, if as much, as the worst pagan idolatry. And it is equally as shameful as true, that other Christian nations have followed the example of Spain, with the natives of this and other countries; wherever the Bible (which was seldom applied right) failed, the musket and bayonet were resorted to. The hogs and cattle are next: the introduction of those animals was the only philanthropic movement during, or that attended, the expedition. These animals were landed as it appears, as early as May, 1539, and Soto died between the last of May, 1542 and the 2d July, 1543. No date given of their leader's death, unless we infer from the dates given in the narrative that he died between the last of May, 1542, at which time he commenced the building of the brigantine, and the 1st of June, 1542, which was the time his successor commenced his march again in the wilderness, which was one day only for commencing the work, for Soto to die, to be put in the water, and his successor to march with the remainder of the soldiers. The portion of the history I have just alluded to, you will find on pages 50 and 51, first volume. Now had Col. Pickett made a little blunder like this, I should not have noticed it, for I know him to be much clearer of committing such blunders than I can think myself to be, (I no doubt could prove that by you.) You will find the day and month given in many places; but the hero of the expedition dies, the day, month, or year is not named. I notice this to show that Portuguese and Spanish authors at all times are not to be relied on. Now sir, I have traveled through Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, and am pretty well acquainted with most of the neighborhoods that the history says Soto traveled through. Now, the idea of marching an army of a thousand men, making the marches as the history describes, and raising hogs, feeding on them, dividing them with the Indians, many left to be killed and packed up by the successor of Soto, and his men to feed on while at seal Now, as this is a swine story, not written by St. Mark, I hope I may be at least permitted to doubt it, without sinning. There was the Christian Jean Ortez, who was a captive long enough to become so well acquainted with the language of the Florida Indians, which must have been the Yermacraws or flat-looted Yemassees, for they evidently were the first Indians that inhabited East Florida, the low parts of Georgia, and South Carolina, so far as we know; if not, then it must have been the Ucheys, or Sowanokees, or Shawnese, for they were then nearest neighbors; we find this man Ortez interpreting, making speeches in Spanish, and in all the Indian dialects where De Soto passed. As I have lived longer among Indians than Ortez, and learned to speak so little, and it was not Sampson that killed the panther, I cannot be bound to believe that story, to be saved. Now, these same Portuguese and Spanish give us a description of the country they passed in the upper parts of Georgia and Alabama, and down to the waters of the Coosa. Now, every person that has read the history, and now knows the country, knows the account to be a highly exaggerated one. As to the Indian temples, I have nothing to say; every one that has seen an Indian town, has seen an Indian temple. That mode of traveling in a chair, carried by four men, differs from any traveling among them that I have seen or heard of. Those large barns of corn never fell to their lots in my time, or any of those old ones that I have been acquainted with, so far as I could learn; besides, the country, a few little creek valleys excepted, is a very poor one — that is, if you will examine the description given by those Portuguese and Spanish gentry, and then examine the country itself.

What I have written is to show that the great probability is, that these writers have not been faithful in their narrations. For I have traveled more or less in and among all the tribes south of latitude 36 north, and some north of that line, between Georgia and Rio del Norte, and I think I am somewhat acquainted with the Indian character, and I am as certain of this as any one thing I never witnessed, viz: that De Soto, no other man, nor any set of men, could have reduced the Indians to such abject slavery. There is not one Indian, male or female, in one hundred, but would have put an end to their existence, rather than submit to such treatment. Even as late as 18367 I knew several Indian women who, rather than risk their children under the control of the Emigrating Indian Agent, put them to death, some of them large enough to walk; and these women had long been acquainted with the whites. In fact, I knew two men to kill themselves in Montgomery, rather than move, when their whole town people were along, and they not in any danger whatever. As long as ours has been a government, with so many tribes whose names have passed from the earth, there is not the mark of a pen, heiroglyphic, or any vestige whatever to show that such people ever were warmed by God's sun, I have never seen the first North American Indian slave, unless it was in Barbour county, Alabama. At what was known as the Pea River Fight, there were some Indian children taken prisoners, and they were mostly girls. I was in Barbour county as late as 1843. I there saw one or two of the children. If they have not been made slaves, I never have heard of any. The peons or foot soldiers in Mexico and the degraded Central American States are not looked upon, or at least by me, as North American Indians. I have no doubt but the tribes inhabiting the tropical regions are much more submissive and timid than the hardy tribes inhabiting north and south of those regions. Besides, such gangs of priests, clergymen and monks, grey-hounds, blood-hounds, hand-cuffs, chains, neck-collars, (and such other holy material as De Soto introduced among the native Floridians, Georgians and Alabamians,) were too freely used for the same purpose among the Mexicans and Central Americans; and the natives of those countries unfortunately lost their own language, and learned the language and embraced the religion of their oppressors, which has made them ten-fold worse than they were in their native state. You may take almost any other people that we read of and train them to be slaves, or at least make them perform those menial offices that slaves do; but such is never the case with an Indian. It is true, you may, by kind treatment, either in word or action, get them occasionally to perform some little offices; but harsh treatment, either in words or blows, never can control an Indian.

Now, after De Soto and his men had been rusticating in the country of the Coosas, they make their way to the Tallassees. They reach the town on the 18th September, 1540. De Soto remained at Tallassee twenty days, crossed over to the east side in canoes and on rafts, and traveled down the eastern side. Now, to show you how those Portuguese and Spaniards mistake things, Tallassee was always on the east side of the Tallapoosa, and Col. Pickett in a note of his own admits the Tukabatchy was built on the opposite side, and all hands know that Tuckabatchy, Tookabatcha, was always on the west side. Now, there was no necessity for canoes and rafts after their stay of twenty days in Tallassee. Moreover, the river at this point is never past fording, only at a high stage of water. Besides, the season of the year in which DeSoto was there, those who know the place will say to you that an Indian pony could ford it from Tallassee to King's Ferry, which is full three miles by water. The Tallassees and Tuckabatchys were both original Musqua and Muscogees, and the oldest Indians and Indian countrymen that I have seen, say Tuckabatchy was settled years before Tallassee. I wrote you once before, that it was a long disputed point with old Cusetaw and Tuckabatchee, which was settled first, but that it was generally conceded that the Cusetaws were the Spoakogees, or Spoakookulgees; that is, the oldest settlers, or the mother of towns.

I know three men in Macon county who could have given Col. Pickett Indian information of modern times, (that is, for the last thirty years,) which is much more reliable than that he has had. I know something of the settlement of the Tallassee town, opposite Tuckabatchy. I will give you, some time before long, the history of the settlement of Tallassee, and how that error crept into Col. Pickett's History[2].

The three gentlemen alluded to above, in Macon county, are Nat and John Callens and L.B. Strange.

I will here remark, that Col Pickett's History has set me right about the death of Alex. McGillivray. I had thought he died as late as 1796, but find he died three years before. His daughter and his last wife, who lived by me for many years, could never tell; and if I ever heard from others I forgot it.

I will in my next give you something of the Nitches, Tallassees, and McGillivray's family.

T. S. W.


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WHEELING, WINN PARISH, LA.,
March 25, 1858.

Eds. Mail: — I see in your paper of March the 11th that "J. W. K." seems desirous to know if can give the origin of the belief among the Chippewa Indians — and he presumes among others that there is a deep gulf to be passed after death, before they can get to their Paradise. I answer him candidly that I can not, and beg to be excused for my profound ignorance on the subject. In the first place, the Chippewas are a people that I am as unacquainted with as I am of the gulf he speaks of. I have heard of both, but have seen neither. I am satisfied that such a people as the Chippewas do exist, for I have seen those that were said to have travelled among them, and I have seen and have travelled among several tribes of Indians — and for that reason I am satisfied that there is such a tribe as the Chippewas. As to the gulf, both the wicked that have fallen in and the good that have crossed it, are the same to us, as neither ever return to give us any information as to what is in the gulf or what there is beyond it. So, if these Indians have such a belief, they must have borrowed it from those that knew as little of such things as themselves. And even those that have instructed the Indians in their belief (if such there be) may have formed their religious notions either from fear, ignorance or interest — for, such has often been the case with those that pretend to much more than the native Indian. I have never heard of any such belief among those that I have been acquainted with; and those that I have conversed with upon religious subjects appeared to have correct notions of Deity — looked upon Him as an invisible being, who only made himself known to man through his works. J. W. K. says in this can be traced a likeness to the Christian belief. Whence came it? I answer, not from the Jews. Why, not believing the American Indian to be a descendant of the Jew proves nothing for or against the Christian religion. The gentleman says there is a marked resemblance in their laws with regard to marriages that the children of Israel were not allowed to take wives among other nations, and such was the law among Indians. Such may have been the case — I will not dispute it. But, if such law ever existed, it was repealed long before my time; and if he will travel among them, and see the number of half-breeds of whites, negroes, and all others that have mixed, and will say that the law has not been repealed, I am certain that he will have the candor to admit that it has been grossly violated, at least. There may be something a little alike in the character of the Indian and the Jew. An Indian will sell the shirt off his back for whisky — the Jew will his for money. The Indian, in their wars, often murdered men, women and children, and so did the Jews. By taking the 31st chap. Numbers, and perusing it closely, he will see that I am not mistaken as to the Jews. There was a custom in my time, among Indians, that there were many crimes punishable by their laws — and could the perpetrators of those crimes escape and lay out until their green-corn dance, and then reach the dance-ground undiscovered, they would go unpunished — but in no instance have I ever known murder to go unpunished, if the offender could be caught. The Wind family was allowed — and it was law that they should punish a murder at any and all times — but the other families were not allowed this privilege after a certain time.

As to the meeting of those versed in Indian history, I would like much to attend such a meeting; and if I am in possession of any information that others have not, I would most willingly impart it. Besides, nothing could afford me more pleasure than to meet at Montgomery. I should like to see it, now it is a city, as I knew it forty years ago a forest. But it is a pleasure, I fear, that my age and situation will deny me. Such a meeting, no doubt, would be interesting to many — bring up much of the past that has probably been forgotten, and be the means of explaining and doing away with many conflicting notions that have and do exist among various persons, in relation to Indians and their history, particularly those tribes that inhabited Alabama.

T. S. W.


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WHEELING, WINN PARISH, LA.
April 2, 1858.
F. A. RUTHERFORD, Esq.

Dear Sir: — Your letter of the 8th ultimo, came to hand yesterday. You wish to know something of the early settlement and history of Macon and the adjoining counties. As to the history of the section of country you live in, I know much from 1813 to 1841, when I left Alabama. Many persons, who know what I do of the country and of the time I allude to, might write something that would interest you and some of your readers, but fear I shall not be able to do so. What I write, however, shall be facts, as well or better established than you generally get them, and perhaps some of them may be new to you and others.

From what I know of the Indians and their history, I think it as probable as anything that cannot be positively proven, that an occurrence in Macon county caused the Creek Indian war of 1813-'14. It was the murder of Arthur Lott, in 1812, by some Chetocchefaula Indians, a branch of the Tallasees. Lott was killed near what is known as the Warrior's Stand. He was moving to the then Mississippi Territory. His family moved on and settled at a bluff on Pearl River, which long went by the name of Lott's Bluff, but is now known as Columbia.

So soon as Col. Hawkins learned that Lott was murdered, he sent Christian Limbo, a German, to Cowetaw, to see Billy McIntosh, a half-breed chief. From Cowetaw, Limbo and McIntosh went to Thleacatska or Brokenarrow, to see Little Prince. The Prince was too old for active service, and sent a well known half-breed, George Lovet, who was also a chief. Lovet took with him some Cussetas and McIntosh some Cowetas, and accompanied Limbo to Tuckabatchy to see the Big Warrior. He placed some Tuckabatchys under a chief called Emutta and the celebrated John McQueen, a negro, and all under the control of McIntosh, went in pursuit of the murderers. They found them on the Notasulga creek, at a place known since as Williamson Ferrell's settlement: where they shot the leaders and returned to their respective towns. This act aroused the Tallassees, and James McQueen, who had controlled them for 95 years having died the year before, his influence was lost, and from talks made some time before by Tecumseh the Sowanaka or Shawnee, and Seekaboo, a Warpicanata chief and prophet, (who was afterwards at the destruction of Ft. Mimms,) a number of the young warriors and a few old ones had become restless. Not long after Lott was killed, an old gentleman named Merideth was killed at the crossing on Catoma Creek, in what is now Montgomery county. This was done by the Otisees in a drunken spree. The Big Warrior undertook to have them punished, but failed to do so, and in attempting to arrest them an Otisee was killed. A few days after this, the Otisees attacked a party of Tuckabachys, under the chief Emutta, at the Old Agency or Polecat Springs, which was then occupied by Nimrod Doyle. Doyle had been a soldier under Gen. St. Clair, was at his defeat and afterwards with Gen. Wayne.

About this time, or a little after, a chief, Tustanuggachee or Little Warrior, and a Coowersortda Indian, known as Capt. Isaacs, who had gone north-west with Tecumseh, were returning to the Creek nation, and learned from some Chickasaws that the Creeks had gone to war. Relying on this information, the Little Warrior's party did some mischief on the frontier of Tennessee as well as killed a few persons. On their return to the nation they found that war had not actually broken out, but only the few little depredations that I have mentioned, had been committed. The Coowersortda Indians, Capt. Sam. Isaacs, (a name that he borrowed from an old trader who died some years back in Lincoln county, Tenn., and who was one of the most cunning, artful scamps I ever saw among the Indians,) gave the Big Warrior information about the murders in Tennessee. Isaacs from his tricks and management and having Alexander McGillivray's daughter for a wife, was let out of the scrape; but the Little Warrior being a Hickory-Ground Indian, set the Coosa Indians at variance with the Big Warrior. After this the Tuckabatchys, Ninny-pask-ulgees, or Road Indians, the Chunnanuggees and Conaligas all forted in, at Tuckabatchy, to defend themselves from those that had turned hostile.

I have often heard Sam Moniac say, that if Lott had not been killed at the time he was, it was his belief that the war could have been prevented. He and Billy Weatherford have often said to me as well as others, that the Big Warrior at the time Tecumseh made his talk at Tuckabatchy, was inclined to take the talk, and at heart, was as hostile as any, if he had not been a coward. I have no doubt, from what I have heard Weatherford say, he (W.) was as much opposed to that war as any one living: but when it became necessary to take sides, he went with his countrymen, and gave me his reasons for so doing. He said, to join the whites was a thing he did not think right, and had it been so they would not have thanked him, and would have attributed it to cowardice. Besides, he said to remain with his people, he could prevent his misguided countrymen from committing many depredations that they might otherwise do. Weatherford was never a chief, though exercising as much or more influence over a part of the nation than many that were chiefs. He did not act the part which some writers say he did in the war, though I think he was fully as great a man as any have made him out to be. He was of a different order of man to what has generally been believed. As I knew him well and have had as good opportunities to become acquainted with his history and character, as most men that now live, I will, when I have leisure, give you Gen. Jackson and Col. Hawkins' opinion of the man, and what I think to be a more correct history than anything I have seen written about him: and should any one doubt my judgment about him, none that knew these men will doubt theirs.

I left the Tuckabachys forted in, on the Tallapoosa. The Cowetaws, Cussetaws, Thleacatskas, Uchees, Oswichees, Hitchetas and the Lower Eufowlas, under McIntosh, Joe Marshall, Timpoochy Barnard and some other Chattahoochee chiefs, went to their assistance. There was some skirmishing, though but little damage done on either side, and the Tuckabachys were carried to the Chattahoochee and Flint rivers, where they remained until Gen. Floyd came into the nation.

I will close this by giving you the names of some few persons who have died and whose remains rest in Macon county. The first, is Gen. John Sevier, of Revolutionary memory. He rests at Ft. Decatur hill. James McQueen, who died, from all accounts, at the age of 128 years. He lived in the Nation 95 years, and was buried on the west bank of Naufapba creek. Just above Franklin, in the old field near Floyd's battle ground on Caleebee, rests James McGirth. He erected the first distillery in Alabama. James Connells, a noted half-breed, and the brother of McGillivray last wife, sleeps by his side. Capt. Sam'l Butts was killed in the battle, and was buried on the ground; as were also Littleton Picket, Green Berry, John Thornton and many others. Capt. Wm. Owens, the father of Hardeman Owens, was buried at Ft. Hull. The Drummer, Dan'l Smith, that your father knew about Saundersville, Ga., more than fifty years ago, and Tom Blanks, a mess-mate of mine, sleep at the same place. Whitmael Williams, David Conyers and Leven Grear, from Washington county, Ga., were buried at what was once known as Fisher's old field, near the mouth of Caleebee. They were killed at Otisee. Capt. Arnold Seale, who lives in your neighborhood, was along at the time, and can tell you as much or more than I can write.

I will at some time try and send you an account of the settlement of Macon county, by many of its present citizens.

Yours, &c.,
 
T. S. W.


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WHEELING, WINN PARISH, LA.
April 25th, 1858.

COL. ALBERT J. PICKETT.

Dear Sir: — Your letter of the 23d February last, addressed to me through The Montgomery Mail, reached me some weeks since, and I have been too much engaged to write, had I been able to write anything worth reading, or to answer your inquiry about the Uchees and their language. All I can say about them is, that they occupied portions of Alabama, Georgia, and perhaps South Carolina. When the Creeks first settled the country, they were the neighbors of the Sowanoka or Shawnees, the Yemacraws, Yemasees and Hitchetas; though they in habits, customs and language were more like the Shawnees than either of the other three tribes I have mentioned. As to that guttural sound or indescribable pronunciation of words, you are as able to account for it as I am. That guttural pronunciation was not alone confined to the Uchees; it seems to have been peculiar to those tribes that inhabited Alabama, Georgia and the Carolinas. Before the Muscogees settled Alabama and Georgia, from what I recollect of the Catawbas, Apilashs, Cherokees and Shawnees, they all more or less have that singular articulation, though not to so great an extent as the Uchees. It is yet noticeable among the common Cherokees and Shawnees; in fact the Uchees and Shawnees once could understand each other's language about as the Choctaws and Chickasaws do theirs. The Uchees were, like many other little tribes, broken up by the Creeks and those western bands that were connected with them. The Cherokees and Sowanokas were about all the tribes that the Creeks did not subdue. These two tribes were always able to stand their hands with the Muscogees, particularly the Sowanokas, until the whites began to encroach an them from the east. The tribe was then strong, and emigrated to the north-west. Many of the Uchees went northwest with the Shawnees. Those Uchees that remained in the country were allowed their own town Chiefs and a head Chief of their tribe, but were all under the general government of the Muscogees. The Uchees contended as long as they lived in the country that they could, man to man, whip the Creeks. And in Gen. Floyd's night fight, their leader, Timpoochy Barnard, fought much better than the friendly Creeks. With equal numbers they could beat the Creeks at a ball play, for I have seen them do it often.

If the Uchees and Shawnees were not originally the same people, they had lived so long and so near each other as to become pretty well acquainted with each other's language. Many years ago I became acquainted with a Shawnee Chief in Texas, who headed a little band of his people that emigrated to that country very shortly after Gen. Harrison defeated them at Tippecanoe. This Chief spoke pretty good English — was very intelligent for an Indian — and was in the Tippecanoe fight, and has often related to me the particulars of that affair, or at least as he understood them. This man has, perhaps, been better known than almost any other Chief of any tribe in the early settlements of Texas ,and Arkansas. He remained in Texas until the American population commenced putting aside Spanish and Mexican customs. He then moved his people into a thinly settled portion of Arkansas. In 1841, a Mr. James Woodland and myself were traveling in Arkansas, and met with the Chief Spy Buck, (for that was his name.) I recollected to have seen or known him in Texas. He made many inquiries about me, and where I lived. I informed him I was living in the Old Musqua Country, and that I intended settling on the Washita river, at a point that he seemed to know; and in January, 1842, I settled at the place spoken of. A week after my arrival at the place, Spy Buck and his party, a few Cherokees, some Choctaws, one or two Chickasaws, and a Delaware, all made their appearance. The Shawnees with Spy Buck, remained some two years near me, and then left for the Kansas river, except his youngest brother; he remained with me four years, or two years after the others left. From these people I learned much of their history. They gave the same account of being forced back from the Savannah and the settlements of the Musqua, in Alabama and Georgia, as the Creeks themselves had given. I had some Uchee negroes that spoke the Uchee, Creek, and Hitcheta; they and the Shawnees, could understand much of each other in Uchee; and that is one reason for believing that the Sowanokas and Uchees were once pretty much the same people. Among the many things I learned from Spy Buck, was that he had hunted with Savannah Jack or Sowanoka Jack above the Cross Timbers on Red River, after Jack had gone West. I see you speak of Jack in your history of Alabama[2]. And as I was acquainted with Jack himself, and have had his history from many that knew him well, and its being connected with the history of Alabama as well as the Uchee Indians, it may not be uninteresting to give a sketch of it here. As I have before stated, a number of the Uchees went North-West with the Shawnees, many years ago. And not long after they reached their new homes on the waters of the Ohio, they commenced their depredations on the frontier settlers of Virginia and Pennsylvania. In one of their scouts they captured a white boy on the frontier of Pennsylvania, by the name of John Hague. This boy Hague was raised to manhood among them, and proved to be as great a savage as any of them. He took an Uchee woman for a wife and raised a number of children; it was also said that

Hague raised an illegitimate son by a white woman named Girthy or Girty, and called his named Simon Girty, after his mother. This boy was brought up about Detroit. It was said that he and a man by the name of Wells contributed much to the defeat of Gen. St. Clair. This I have learned from several white men who knew Girty and were with Gen. St. Clair. I will give you the names of four of them, as they were known to many in Alabama and Georgia: Nimrod Doyle, Absalom Hall, John Cone, and Bob Walton. Doyle and Walton were both wounded at the defeat. Hague, who had grown old, remained in the country until Gen. Wayne put an end to the troubles in that quarter. So soon as this was done, Hague came South with his Indian family bringing with him some Uchees and Sowanokas, and settled them on Fawn Creek, or what is now known as Line Creek, near its mouth and on the Montgomery side of the Creek. Hague died and was buried on a mound near where there was once a little village, settled by the whites, called Augusta. This I have learned from Doyle, Walton Sam. Moniac, Billy Weatherford and many others. And Savannah Jack was his youngest son by the Uchee woman. I do not know that it would be slandering the illustrious dead to say that Jack was the Marshal Ney of the old hostile Indians: Jack fought through the War, and after their defeat at Horse Shoe, and Gen. Jackson moved his troops to the place where he built Fort Jackson. The Indians then became very much discouraged and commenced coming in. The chiefs who had controlled these towns during the War would get in striking distance, to hear what was to be done. Jack sent his women and children out of the head waters of Catoma, and secreted his warriors between a Cypress brake and the river, not far above the present city of Montgomery. Weatherford, who was not a Chief, (but had more influence than many that were,) placed his people on a little island in the Alabama river, near the mouth of Noland creek, that makes into the river on the North or Autauga side, known as Moniac's Island. Weatherford's people were Tuskegees. Peter McQueen and his Talassees quartered themselves upon the head waters of Line Creek. John and Sandy Durant, the brothers of McQueen's wife, and also the brothers of Lochlin Durant, that you know, remained with McQueen. Josiah Francis, the Prophet, Nehe Marthla Micco, the Otisee chief, (both of them hanged, 1818, by Gen. Jackson,) placed their people not far above the Federal crossing on the Catoma. Hossa Yoholo, a very white half-breed chief, and the son of a man by the name of Powell, I think, took shelter in the dense cane forest in the bend opposite Montgomery. This man, from what I have learned, was one of the most reckless fighters in the nation. Ogillis Ineha, or Menauway, who was the principal leader at Horse Shoe, and at the time was supposed to be killed, carried his people near the falls of Cahawba, where he remained for more than a year after peace was made.

This was the situation of those chiefs and their people about the time and shortly after General Jackson reached Franca Choka Chula, or the old French trading-house, as it was called by the Indians. Weatherford sent up. old Tom Carr, or Tuskegee Emarthla, and he soon learned through Sam Moniac, his brother-in-law, (who was always friendly,) that he was in no danger, and so he came to camp, (but not in the way that it has been represented.) General Jackson, as if by intuition, seemed to know that Weatherford was no savage and much more than an ordinary man by nature, and treated him very kindly indeed. Savannah Jack, or, as he has been called by some, Sowanoka Jack, was not then as well known to the whites as many others. He frequented the camp pretty much unnoticed, (no doubt as he wished to be.) It was not long before it was understood that Jacksa Chula Harjo (as the Indians used to call Gen. Jackson,) wanted land to pay for the trouble he had been at, and that the Big Warrior and others were in favor of giving Old Mad Jackson, as they called him, as much land as he wanted. Jack poor fellow — his little field happened to be on the Montgomery side of Line Creek, and of course would have to go with the ceded territory. This Jack could not stand; he threatened to kill the Big Warrior and go to fighting the whites again. It was soon understood that a hostile chief was in camp, making threats, and the General wished to see him; but Jack disappeared. He took his warriors from the cypress brake near Montgomery, went out to Catoma, where his women and children were, and there joined Francis and the Otisee chief. Hoosa Yoholo left the bend of the river at Montgomery and joined Jack and his crowd, as also did McQueen and the Durants. The boy, Billy Powell, who was the grandson of one of Peter McQueen's sisters, was then a little boy, and was with this party. They all put out for Florida, and on their route they split among themselves. Jack and his people being Uchees and Sowanokas, called a halt on the Sepulga, about there and on the line of West Florida, where he remained until he went West. As to the history of his stay in that region, and what he did before he left, you have already had it. I knew Capt. Butler and the others he killed, and those who made their escape. I knew Ogley — poor fellow, I staid one night at his house in company with a Col. Turner Bynum, of North Carolina, and his son, J. A. Bynum, who has since represented the Halifax District, N. C., in Congress. McQueen and the others went to East Florida. Sandy Durant died at Tampa Bay, not long after they reached the country. John Durant went to Nassau, on the Island of New Providence. Peter McQueen remained in Florida until after Gen. Jackson's campaign of 1818, shortly after which he died on a little barren island on the Atlantic side of Cape Florida. Hossa Yoholo, the white half-breed chief, died on Indian river, in East Florida, with a disease in his feet caused from an insect there known as the jigger. This I learned from a hostile negro who was raised with a family by the name of Powell, but in after times was known as Holmes' Ned. He accompanied Hossa Yoholo or the Singing Sun to Florida. I knew Ned many years: I purchased him from our friend, Horse Shoe Ned, and he died mine.

I will here try and account to you for an error that many have fallen into, about Billy Powell or Oceola. As I remarked before, this boy went with his uncle, McQueen, to Florida. I knew him well after that, and have seen him frequently. Capt. Isaac Brown and myself, with a party of friendly Creeks and Uchees, made a prisoner, in 1818, and he was then but a lad. Capt. Brown is now living in Bozier Parish, this State, and well recollects the circumstance; for at the same time we captured Billy, we re-captured a white woman that was made a prisoner by the Indians at the massacre of Lieut. Scott and his party, below the mouth of Flint river. She was then a Mrs. Stuart, since a Mrs. Dill, of Fort Gaines, Ga. This was at Osilla, and known as the Mcintosh fight. This boy having gone to Florida at the same time that Hossa Yoholo went, then growing to be a man, and then being called Ussa Yoholo, or Black Drink, after the killing of Gen. Thompson, those that had heard of the fighter Hossa Yoholo, of the old war, took Ussa Yoholo to be the same man. You will see that the names, from the way they are spelled, would sound pretty much alike, and they both being Powells but of different families — you can see how the mistake could have easily originated. Besides, I know that Oceola, as he is called, was not a chief, nor ever was known to the Tallassees as such, until after the killing of Gen. Thompson.

You see that it is generally the half-breeds and mixed-bloods that speak our language, that the whites get acquainted with; and if, in case of a little war or anything of the sort, one of those that the whites know, go off among the hostiles, he is by the whites dubbed a chief. The Indians soon learn whom the whites look upon as being their leaders, and not being as ambitious of distinction as the whites generally are, when any talking or compromising is to be done, those persons are put forward. Such was the case with Jim Henry and others, in 1836. Jim Henry was never a chief in his life. His mother was a Chehaw woman, and his father a Cuban Spaniard, and one of those deserters from St. Augustine, Fla., long before I knew anything about Indians. The father of Jim was Antonio Rea. He once lived in Saundersville, Washington county, Ga., but that was before I knew him. A Capt. McDougald took him to Fort Hawkins, from whence he went to Chehaw, and thence to a place called Pinder Town. One of the others was Emanuel, though sometimes called Toney. He was the father of our Toney that killed George Bonner, in 1836. The other was Tom Peechin, known as Tom Pigeon. I saw an account, not long since, of Joe Pigeon, a half-breed Choctaw, being hanged in Mobile, for killing a cab-man. His mother was no Choctaw; she was a Creek. Whenever you come to know the truth, you will find that it was our Joe. Old Tom, his father stopped at Pass Christian, and never went with the Indians to Arkansas, as I have heard; besides killing a man for a few dollars was just suited to Joe's morals. Although Joe's father was a Catholic, and Joe a pupil of Mr. Compeer, his religious teachings did him but little good. I knew him well, and he was certainly one of the worst half-breeds I ever knew.

When I commenced this, I had no idea of putting Joe Pigeon in it; but he has passed up among other old acquaintances, and so I have to let him in. I will write something else, next time.

Yours,
 
T. S. W.


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WHEELING, WINN PARISH, LA.
June 13th, 1858.

J. J. HOOPER, Esq.:

Dear Sir: — Some time in April last I directed a letter to you which was intended to be addressed to Col. A. J. Pickett, through your paper. Whether it reached you or not I do not know; if it did, and has been published, I would be glad to get the number of your paper that contains it, as I have promised a friend to let him have what I write to you and others, relative to Indian history, and the early settlement of Alabama. Your paper until within the last two months came more regularly than any I take; since that time, I seldom see or hear of a Montgomery Mail. I do not recollect the last number of the Mail I did get. This country is like most others that I have lived in — too few reading people, and too many of that few find it more convenient to borrow a newspaper than pay for one; so I very often have mine loaned out. And that is why I cannot recollect the last number I received. But I recollect among the last numbers that I have seen, there was a sketch, I think, taken from a Boston paper, giving an account of the meeting of three Scotch brothers in Charleston, Mass., which meeting was not of very common occurrence; and, on reading that, I sketched off the meeting of two brothers, that I witnessed, many years ago, in what is now Alabama, but then was the Creek nation, and which I did not send to you.

Some years before the Creek war, and when I was quite a youngster, I made occasional visits to the Ocmulgee river, which was then the line between the whites and Indians. The Indians claimed half the river, and in spring or shad-catching time the Indians would flock from all parts of the nation in great numbers to the Ocmulgee. They could be seen at every shoal as high up the river as shad could run, down to the Altamaha, for the purpose of fishing. On one of my trips to Old Fort Hawkins, I became acquainted with an Indian countryman by the name of John Ward; and the first time I ever visited the Creek agency, which was then on Flint River, was in company with Ward, an old uncle of mine, and one Andrew McDougald. Col. Hawkins was then holding a council with some chiefs from various parts of the nation. I met with Ward occasionally from that time until the war commenced. When Gen. Floyd moved his troops to Flint River, Ward was the interpreter for the officer that was in command at Fort Manning. He then came into Gen. Floyd's camp, and remained with the army until it reached tile Chattahoochee, and commenced building Fort Mitchell. He was often sent out with Nimrod Doyle as a spy. There was also an Indian countryman along by the name of Bob Moseley. Moseley's wife was the niece of Peter McQueen. Ward's wife was a relation of Daniel McDonald, more generally known to the whites as Daniel McGillivray, and both of their wives were then with the hostile Indians. Ward and Moseley seemed willing to risk any and everything to forward the movements of the army, in order to reach the neighborhood of their families. There was a detachment of soldiers sent out to Uchee creek, to throw up a breastwork. I was one of the party, and among the rest was a Baptist preacher by the name of Elisha Moseley, a very sensible and most excellent man at that, and as grave as men ever get to be; for he could pray all night and fight all day, or pray all day and fight all night, just as it came to his turn to do either; and this preacher was a brother to Bob Moseley, the Indian countryman. While at this breastwork, one night, by a campfire, I listened to Elijah Moseley inquiring into his brother's motives for leaving a white family and making his home among a tribe of savages. Bob's reply was, as well as I now recollect, that there was no false swearing among Indians. The preacher then commenced making some enquiry into Ward's history. Ward informed him that his father had taken him into the Creek nation near where Oweatumka or Wetumpka now stands, when he (Ward) was a child, and shortly after died, and that he recollected very little of his father; that he had been raised by Daniel McDonald, or McGillivray, as he was commonly called; that he heard McDonald say that his father was a Georgian, and had left a wife and children in that State. Ward's history, as far as it went, soon became known in the camp; and some one in the camp, that had heard of Ward's father quitting his family and disappearing with one of his children, and knowing something of the Wards in Georgia, looked at John Ward and said, from the near resemblance of him and a Georgia Ward, they must be brothers.

The Georgia brother was written to, and in a few weeks, made his appearance in camp. In this time, the Indian Ward, from exposure, had fallen sick, and was very low. The Georgia brother came into camp one night, and the next morning John Ward was a corpse — though John was perfectly rational on the arrival of his brother and, before he died, knew who he was. They proved to be twin brothers. A very intimate acquaintance of yours messed with me at the time, and Ward frequently messed with us. It was Capt. Arnold Seals, of Macon county, Ala. Ward died in one of the tents of Adams' riflemen, and Elijah Moseley was his nurse. The most feeling pulpit talk I ever heard dropped from the lips of Elijah Moseley, in a soldier's tent, on the death of John Ward. Ward left one son. John, though raised among Indians, spoke our language very well. John's mother was a Tuskegee. He was entitled to a half section of land, under the treaty, and was enrolled among the Tuskegees. He was a floater, under the treaty, but by the permission of Col. Albert Nat. Collins, of Macon county, and myself, he located him a tract in the fork of Coosa and Tallapoosa. I think he sold to Col. George Taylor. The Indian countryman, John Ward, died in 1813. His remains rest on the hill just above old Fort Mitchell. So do the remains of two other Indian countrymen — Tom Carr, an Englishman, and the father of Paddy Carr, and lame Bob Walton. Col. Hawkins used to call him Timor Bob, and said he was as brave, if not the bravest man he ever knew. He was the interpreter for Col. Hawkins, and accompanied him to the Hickory Ground, with Sam Moniac, Billy Weatherford, Pinthio Yoholo, or Swamp Singer, and old Eufau Harjo, or Mad Dog, at the time he arrested Boles, the Englishman, at the head of fifteen hundred Indian warriors. If old Col. Joe Hutchinson is living, he can give you a full history of that affair; and if dead, a letter, in the hand writing of Col. Hawkins, may be found among his papers, detailing the history of the whole matter. On the hill where rest the remains of these men I have mentioned, as well as many others that I could name, moulders the right arm of Lieut. Tennell. He was a gallant man — was wounded at Otissee. His arm was amputated by/)r. Charles Williamson, at Fort Mitchell. Those things are as fresh in my memory almost as when they occurred at least, much more so than many things that have occurred long since.

I will close this by saying to you, that I wrote another letter to Col. Pickett>, trying to prove to him that I was better acquainted with Indian history than himself; but not knowing whether the first was published, I decline sending it, thinking it probable that they were getting too long and uninteresting for publication; and, from my manner of writing, I could give no satisfaction — if satisfaction I could give at all — and have them much shorter.

I hope my old Tar River friend, Horse Shoe Ned, still lives and enjoys good health. I would give more to see him and Lewis Tyus than I would to read all the speeches that have been spoken and all the letters that have been written on Kansas affairs.

Yours,
 
T. S. W.


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From the Columbus (Ga.) Sun.

Eds. Sun: In the spring of 1818, the writer was in Gen. Jackson's army, in Florida, consisting of near 4,000 men, including regulars commanded by Gen. Gaines; Georgia militia commanded by Gen. Glascock; the Tennessee horsemen and friendly Indians under Gen. McIntosh. Major Thomas Woodward and Captain Isaac Brown had a kind of joint command with McIntosh over the Indians.

While marching on between St. Marks, and Sewannee Town, distance about one hundred miles, on Sunday, the 12th day of April, we discovered fresh signs of Indians. Gen. McIntosh, with his command of Creek Indians, pursued them. The main army, as was our habit, lay down in the grass to rest and await Mcintosh return. Very soon Mcintosh overtook them, and the battle commenced in hearing of us, probably a mile off. We could hear the firing of guns, which continued for some time.

Well I remember an express borne from Mcintosh. An Indian, on foot, running, crying out, at the top of his voice, "Captain Jackson, Captain Jackson." As he passed us, we pointed to Old Hickory, who soon dispatched a company of Tennessee mounted men to aid Mcintosh. The battle was finished ere they reached him. Mcintosh and Woodward soon returned to our camp with their prisoners, consisting of women and children, and a white woman to our surprise. This woman is still living in or about Fort Gaines. She was then Mrs. Stuart, and afterwards married John Dill, of Fort Gaines, who died a few years since.

For the particulars of her capture by the Indians and recapture by McIntosh and Woodward, I refer to the enclosed letter, which I have just received from Gen. Woodward, which, if you think of sufficient interest, please copy in full, or make such extracts as you choose. Since receiving this letter from Gen. Woodward, I have hunted up my diary, kept during that campaign, and have made the above extracts.

B.


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WHEELING, WINN PARISH, LA.
June 16th, 1858.

COL. JOHN BANKS:

Dear Sir: Your letter of the 27th ult. is as welcome as it was unexpected. Anything from those I knew in early life is consoling to my feelings in my present lonely situation, particularly when it contains such kindly expressed feelings for my welfare here and my happiness hereafter. In your P.S. you say I may have forgotten you. Your name is a familiar one to me, and it is possible I may not know which one of that name I am writing to, but it would be treating unkindly one of the best memories that man ever had to doubt it. If you are the John Banks I think I am writing to, you were born in Georgia, and the same county I was, Elbert.

In 1818 there were two companies of soldiers from Elbert county, Ga., one commanded by Capt. Mann; the other by Capt. Ashley. You were a Lieutenant in one of them. I remember the trip to Fort Early that you speak of, as I do most of what occurred in that Florida expedition. That was a little over forty years ago. The names you mention in your letter are as familiar to me as my own. The two women whose names you mention, if the incidents connected with their lives were as well known to some as they are to myself, would afford material for a very interesting book. Mrs. Stuart (now Mrs. Dill) you saw when Capt. Brown and myself carried her to your camp; you know something of her history — at least you know something of her being a captive among the hostile Indians. And as I have nothing to do to-day, and you live in Columbus among many of my old acquaintances as well as relatives, and perhaps some of them would be willing to hear that I am living at least, I will give you a little of their (Mrs. Dill's and Mrs. Brown's) history.

In 1816 anti 1817, the Florida Indians were doing mischief, and the Government found it necessary to keep troops quartered on the borders of Florida. Fort Scott and Fort Huse were erected to protect the settlers in Early county, Georgia. That was then a new and thinly settled country. The command of the troops was given to Colonel Arbuckle. He had frequent skirmishes with the Indians, under the control of Chitto-Fanna-Chula, or old Snake Bone, but known to you and the whites generally as old Ne-he-mathla. The present gallant General Twiggs was then a Brevet Major in the 7th Regiment of Infantry, and was generally the foremost in those skirmishes. Supplies for the troops had to be carried from New Orleans and Mobile by water. A very large boat with army stores was started from Mobile Point under the command of Lieut. Scott. Mrs. Stuart was among those on board; her husband, a Sergeant, and a fine looking man at that, had gone with the troops by land. The boat, having to be propelled by oars and poles, was long on the trip, and by this time the war had completely opened. The old hostile Creeks, from various portions of Florida, were engaged in it; among others the two Chiefs you saw hanged at St. Mark's — Josiah Francis and Ne-he-mathla Micco. They headed a party and watched the boats. As those on board were hooking and jamming (as the boatmen called it) near the bank, and opposite a thick canebrake, the Indians fired on them, killing and wounding most of those on board at the first fire. Those not disabled from the first fire of the Indians made the best fight they could, but all on board were killed except Mrs. Stuart and two soldiers Gray, and another man whose name I have forgot, if I ever knew it; they were both shot, but made their escape by swimming to the opposite shore. I must here mention a circumstance that occurred on board the boat at the time, which I learned from one of the men who escaped, and also from some of the Indians who were present. There was a Sergeant named McIntosh, a Scotchman, on board, whom I knew well. He was with Colonel, afterwards General Thomas A. Smith, before St. Augustine, Fla., in 1812, and a Sergeant in Capt. Woodruff's company, at the beginning of the war of 1812, and was a favorite among officers and soldiers. He was an own cousin of the Indian General McIntosh you knew, whose grave you say you not long since visited. Sergeant Mcintosh was a man of giant size, and perhaps more bodily strength than any man I have known in our service. When he found all on the boat were lost, and nothing more could be done, he went into a little kind of cabin that the Lieutenant had occupied as his quarters, in which was a swivel or small cannon; loaded it, took it on deck, and resting the swivel on one arm ranged it as well as he could, and (the Indians by this time were boarding the boat) with a fire-brand, he set off the swivel, which cleared the boat for a few minutes of Indians. At the firing of the swivel he was thrown overboard and drowned, and this clearing of the Indians from the boat for a short time gave Gray a chance to escape. Mrs. Stuart was taken almost lifeless as well as senseless, and was a captive until the day I carried her to your camp. After taking her from the boat, they (the Indians) differed among themselves as to whose slave or servant she should be. An Indian by the name of Yellow Hair said he had many years before been sick at or near St. Mary's, and that he felt it a duty to take the woman and treat her kindly, as he was treated so by a white woman when he was among the whites. The matter was left to an old Indian by the name of Bear Head, who decided in favor of Yellow Hair. I was told by the Indians that Yellow Hair treated her with great kindness and respect. I never asked her any questions as to her treatment, and presume she never knew me from any other Indian, as Brown and myself were both dressed like Indians. We knew long before we re-captured her what band she was with, and had tried to come up with them before.

The most tiresome march I ever made was one night in company with the present Gen. Twiggs. He with some soldiers, and I with a party of Indians, trying to rescue her at old TaIIahassee, but the Indians had left before we reached the place. I shall never, while I live, forget the day we took her from the Indians. Billy Mitchell, a son of the then Indian agent, Brown, Kendall Lewis, John WinsIett, Sam. Hail and myself, were the only white men that were with the Indians, except old Jack Carter, my pack-horseman. The white men I have named and the Hitchetas trader Noble Kenard, and the Uchees under Timpoochy Barnard, commenced the fight. Shortly after the firing commenced, we could hear a female voice in the English language calling for help, but she was concealed from our view. The hostile Indians, though greatly inferior in number to our whole force, had the advantage of the ground, it being a dense thicket, and kept the party that first attacked at bay until Gen. McIntosh arrived with the main force. Mcintosh, though raised among savages, was a General; yes, he was one of God's make of Generals. I could hear his voice above the din of firearms — "Save the white woman! save the Indian women and children" All this time Mrs. Stuart was between the fires of the combatants. McIntosh said to me, "Chulatarla Emathla, you, Brown and Mitchell, go to that woman." (Chulatarle Emathla was the name I was known by among the Indians. ) Mitchell was a good soldier and a bad cripple from rheumatism. He dismounted from his horse and said, "Boys, let me lead the way." We made the charge with some Uchees and Creeks, but Mitchell, poor fellow, was soon left behind, in consequence of his inability to travel on foot. I can see her now, squatted in the saw palmetto, among a few dwarf cabbage trees, surrounded by a group of Indian women. There I saw Brown kill an Indian, and I got my riflestock shot off just back of the lock. Old Jack Carter came up with my horse shortly after we cut off the woman from the warriors. I got his musket and used it until the fight ended. You saw her (Mrs. Stuart) when she reached the camp, and recollect her appearance better than I can describe it.

You say you have seen the old lady, the mother of Isaac Brown. I never saw her but once, and that was in Twiggs county, Ga., about the last of February, 1818. It was at her own house. I called there to get Isaac to go with me into Florida, as I had been ordered by General .Jackson to collect as many Indians as I could and join him at Fort Scott. Isaac had no horse that was suitable for the trip. I left my horse with Gen. Wimberly, and we took it on foot to Fort Early, trusting to Providence for horses after that. When we were about to leave, the old lady said, "Isaac, my son, the Indians killed your father, and may kill you, but I had rather hear of your being killed than to hear that my son had acted the coward." This is all the acquaintance I ever had with the old lady; but I have had her history from many that knew her well. When Isaac was an infant, his father, who was a fearless man, crossed the Oconee river near what is known as the Long Bluff. The Oconee was then the line between the whites and Indians. Brown built him a house, and was preparing for stock raising. He always kept on hand a number of loaded guns and some fine dogs. One morning about daylight his dogs commenced barking; he opened the door to look out and was shot dead by an Indian, who had secreted himself near the house. At the report of the gun, the Indians raised the yell. Mrs. Brown drew her lifeless husband into the house, shut the door, and commenced firing at the Indians, and succeeded in driving them off. They soon returned, and set fire to a board shelter attached to the house. She climbed up the wall on the inside; and with a basin of milk extinguished the fire; and while in the act of pouring the milk on the fire, with her arm projecting through the log, the Indians shot at and broke her shoulder. With one arm and the aid of a small boy, the son of one James Harrison, she succeeded the second time in driving the Indians away. She then escaped across the river with her children. A company was collected and repaired to the house, and they said it had not been a sham fight for they found the white man in the house shot dead, and not far from the house two dead Indians, and not far from their trail were discovered signs as though they had been dressing wounds. Now you can account for Lexington and his half-brother, Lecompte, being race horses — it's in the blood. The boy that was with Mrs. Brown, was the son of James Harrison, who was a man of great daring and had suffered much from the Indians, and they in return had suffered much from him. He was the man who killed the father of the present speaker of the Creeks, Hopothleyoholo, and was known to the Indians as Epha Tustanugga, or Dog Warrior, and to the whites as Davy or David Cornels. Davy Cornels, I suspect, was the cause of more mischief done to the whites by the Creek Indians than any man that ever lived in the nation. He was troublesome during the Revolution and long after. While Seagroves was agent, Cornels sent him word that he wished to be at peace, and would meet him at Colerain, not a great way from St. Mary's. Seagroves unfortunately let it be known that he was expecting a visit from Cornels. Harrison heard of it, collected a few men, and I suspect Brown's father among the rest. All had suffered long and much from the depredations of Cornels and his men; they knew his path; they watched it closely, and one day as he approached them with a white flag, Harrison killed him. So ended the life of the most bitter enemy the whites ever had among the Creek Indians, Sowanoka Jack excepted.

By the time you get through what I have here scribbled, I reckon you will be a little cautious how you write to your old Indian acquaintances who have little else to do than sit and think over old times. You say you reckon I am now an old man; you are right. Time, the common leveler of our race, has not passed me unnoticed, and according to the course of things it will not be a great while before I am turned over to the terror of kings. If you see Jack or Thacker Howard, tell them I am living. May you live as long as suits your convenience.

Respectfully,
 
T.S.W.


TOP    CONTENTS

WHEELING, WINN PARISH, LA.

June 21st, 1858.

COL. A.J. Pickett:

Dear Sir: — I addressed to you, in April last, a letter through The Montgomery Mail. Some few days after I forwarded that, I wrote a second one, which I intended for you, but not knowing that my first was published, I declined sending the second. But a few days back I received the number of the Mail in which my letter was published. Whether you found that either instructive or interesting, I cannot say; but inasmuch as that has been published I shall risk another, and if our friend Hooper finds it too long and uninteresting, he can do with it as he has to do with other trash — throw it aside, or commit it to the flames.

In your letter to me of February last, you mentioned something of the inquiry I made in a private letter to my friend Hartrick, about a manuscript. Why that inquiry was made, I had learned that you had had, at one time, the manuscripts of George Stiggins, and possibly I might learn something of the manuscript I loaned him. I had no idea that anything I had written would be used by you, or any one else, in the history of a country; but the manuscript of Christian Limbo, taken from Col. Hawkins' writings, I would have been glad to have gotten hold of, as it contained much I think (if now published) that would be new to you and others, and entertaining to all who take an interest in Indian history. Besides, it contained the copies of two letters written as far back as 1735, by Sir James or Gen. Oglethorpe. They were written at different times, but both written at Frederica, on St. Simond's Island. The letters were directed to James McQueen, requesting him to use his influence with the Indians and prevent them, if possible, from taking sides with the Spaniards who were then threatening to attack the infant colony of Georgia. The letters were written in a style very different from letters written at the present day; and the bearer of those letters was a Scotchman named Malcolm McPherson. He was the natural father of Sehoya, or Schoy McPherson, and she was the mother of Davy Tate and Billy Weatherford, and was not the daughter of Lauchlan McGillivray, as has been represented. McPherson was the man that gave Lauchlan McGillivray his first start as a trader. McGillivray came to the Creek nation in company with John Tare and Daniel McDonald. John Tate was the father of Davy Tare, and was the last agent the English Government ever had among the Creeks. During the American revolution, Tare raised a large number of Indians on the waters of Alabama, and from almost every town (except the Tallassees and Netchez, who, through the influence of McQueen, never did take up arms against the colonies during the revolution.) Tate carried his warriors to Chattahoochee, and there joined Tusta Nuggy Hopoy, or Little Prince, with the Chattahoochee Indians, and started to Augusta, Ga., to aid a Col. Griefson, better known as Grayson, a Tory Colonel. Near the head springs of the Upatoy creek, and near old Fort Perry, Tate became deranged; the cause I never learned. He was brought back to old Cusscraw and died; he was buried on a high hill east of the old town, and near what was the residence of Gen. Woolfolk when I left the country. I have been shown his grave often, and have heard what I have stated from Little Prince, and a hundred others that were along at the time. When Tate died, the Alabama Indians mostly returned, except the Tuckabatchys under Efau Tustanuggy, or Dog Warrior. (He was known to the whites as Davy Cornels; he was the father of the present speaker of the Creeks, Hopoithleyohola, and a brother of Alexander McGillivray's last wife.) This man with his warriors accompanied the Little Prince and his party to Augusta, and did some fighting and much other mischief.

This man Davy Cornels did more mischief to the whites than any man that has lived among the Creeks, and was the most hostile and bitter enemy the whites ever had among the Creeks, Savannah Jack excepted. While Seagrove was agent, Cornels sent him word he wished to be at peace and would visit him at Colerain, near St. Mary's. It was known to some whites that Seagrove was expecting a visit from Davy Cornels — a James Harrison that had suffered much by the Indians, way-laid Cornels' path and killed him, bearing a white flag. We might go back to Lauchlan McGillivray; he was a Scotchman, as was Tate. And not long before or after Tate had left the nation for Augusta, McGillivray took his two children, Sophy and Alexander, and started for Savannah; the Americans lay around Col. Campbell's camp or fort in such numbers that he was forced to send his children back to the nation by his negro man Charles. Charles lived with and about me for years, and I have heard him and others who corroborated his statement, tell it often. Sophy was the oldest of the two. So, you see, you and I differ widely as to the time Alexander McGillivray came into existence, because Alex. McGillivray's mother was not the daughter of a Frenchman or French soldier. She was a full blooded Tuskegee Indian. Your history says Alexander was the first born of Lauchlan McGillivray and Sehoy Marchand. I spe